Thursday, October 26, 2006

Succah 54b

Although the Braisa in today's daf implies that the levi'im say the shir of rosh chodesh and not shabbos, the gemara explains in the name of r' safra that it just means that the shir of rosh chodesh comes before the shir for shabbos. On that the gemara asks, we should say the tadir comes first - so shabbos should be first. Tosafos comments that the question of Tadir can be asked even without r' safra. Clearly, Tosafos implies that Tadir is not simply a sevara for kadima but even it is even a sevara to choose the shir of shabbos rather than rosh chodesh. See Magen Avrohom 684:2 who points this out. Tosafos here is lishitasam in Tosafos in Yoma 33a (ein ma'avirin) where Tosafos claims that ein ma'avirin al hamitzvos is a sevara of kadima, but if you have to choose one or the other you use the sevara of tadir.

Also, if tadir is a sevara deoraysa, how can we override the sevara of tadir in order to publicize that it is rosh chodesh?


Rabbi Yisroel Gordon said...

Great question! What makes you think tadir is deoraisa?

Avi Lebowitz said...

Rashi in Brachos 51b explains the source of tadir is from a gemara in zevachim that learns it from a pasuk. This implies that although the context of the pasuk is by korban, we apply it all over and is deoraysa.
The Beis yosef O.C. 188 who quotes kol bo, that on shabbos rosh chodesh we say ritzei first bec. it is tadir. But on Chanukah we say al hanisim before ritzei, even though ritzei is tadir bec. they were mesaken al hanisim in hoda'ah and did not want to change. Here, since the whole institution of Al Hanisim is only derabanon, they are not bound to tadir even if it is deporaysa. Furthermore, one they establish the appropriate place for Al Hanisim is in Hoda'ah and it is not yet the place for ritzei, you are never faced with both requirements at the same time, so you are not bound by tadir.

Joey Felsen said...

Well Put!

Avi Lebowitz said...

I would like to answer my own question, that if tadir is deoraysa how do we push it off just to publicize rosh chodesh?

I just saw that the machtzis hashekel (684:2) and aruch laner quote teshuvos shev yaacov (22) who explains that even acc. to tosafos that tadir can determine that the eino tadir is pushed off completely, we still push off the the haftorah of rosh chodesh and read chanukah bec. tadir is only a factor when there is nothing against it. Therefore, until we realized that there is a sevara to publicize rosh chodesh we are able to ask from tadir. But, once the gemara answers that we publicize rosh chodesh, we no longer care about tadir.

According to this, even if tadir is indeed deoraysa, it is only applicable when you are confronted with an equal choice. But, if there is already a sevara to pick one, tadir never comes into play. Therefore, even if it is deoraysa, it only applies when confronted with 2 equal choices.

Aryeh Lebowitz said...

Is it possible that the chachamim have the right to be oker davar min hatorah if it is to do something that would be kasher b'dieved anyway?

Avi Lebowitz said...

I don't think it is considered kasher bidieved, bec. you are going against the requirement of tadir. Although you are yotzei the mitzvah bidieved, you were not mekayem tadir bidieved.