Wednesday, December 17, 2008

Kiddushin 70b - Arvus for Geirim

Tosafos proves that geirim were not included in arvus. Based on this it should come out that the halacha that allows one to make kiddush and blow shofar for another even after being yotzei himself should not apply to a ger. I am troubled that the exclusion of a ger from arvus isn't mentioned by the halachos where we use arvus to be motzi others such as kiddush. Is anyone familiar with a source? 
(I found an article from my brother R' Aryeh, where he quotes R' Shternbach who says a drush to distinguish between arvus for communal responsibility for them, and arvus on the personal level to be motzi them. However, I find this very hard to swallow).


Avi Lebowitz said...

My rebbi, R' Tzvi Berkowitz, referred me to Pri Megadim in psicha kolleles chelek sheini (16) where he quotes from a teshuva "sama d'chaya" that based on tosafos kiddushin 70b and rashi nida 13b who say that arvus doesn't apply to geirim, we cannot rely on "af al pi she'yatzah motzi".
It is important to note that even if they aren't included in arvus, geirim can still make kiddush for others, and others for them, if they have not yet been yotzei. Also, as the gemara says in kiddushin 73a -
מי איכא דדריש מילתא כי האי בדוכתא דשכיחי גיורי

Avi Lebowitz said...

I later found that the pri megadim (o.c. eishel avrohom 53:19) who at first writes that a ger isn't included in arvus and therefore cannot be motzi others, but then says retracts based on the p'sak of the shulchan aruch that a ger can be sheliach tzibur. The pri megadim understands from this that we don't pasken like rashi, rather we pasken geirim are included in arvus.