A Jewish man lived with a non-jewish woman for years, she then converted and he did teshuvah, do they have to wait 3 months before getting married?
First, the mishnah 24b says that a non-jewish women who is suspected of having relations with a jewish man cannot marry her after she converts. The reason given in the gemara (explained by rashi) is that getting married strengthens the suspicion that they did in fact have relations. However, R' Shlomo Kluger in Shulchan Aruch (E.H. 11:5) points out that if they definitely had relations (not just suspect), then it should be permitted since in that case the marriage is not strengthening the "rumors", since we know for sure that they were mezaneh. However, the Nimukei Yosef (brought in Beis Shmuel) says that even if they definitely had relations, they cannot get married. R' Moshe (Igros E.H. 1:27) is mechadesh that the Nimukei Yosef is concerned that by getting married they would be publicizing the sin that they commited by having relations. This only applies to a situation where we know for sure they had relations but it was not public knowledge, however when they actually lived together, so it is public knowledge, one is supposed to publicize the aviera when they do teshuva.
Regarding waiting 3 months, R' Moshe writes matter of factly that she must wait. I don't understand why she needs to wait. We require havchana whenever we don't know who the father is, or don't know if conception occurred before or after his conversion (either for the purpose of shechina resting, or for the purpose of not leading to ervah). But, here everything is very clear, the child is Jewish since she converted while pregnant (or before she became pregnant). The father was jewish the whole time so that any son born later will be a brother both from the father and from the mother, so there won't be any concern even if yibum is done. Why would there be a need for havchana?
Perhaps the need for havchana is bec. we are concerned that before she converted she had z'nus with someone else. This is really a machlokes on 35a whether a convert has to wait 3 months or do we assume that she avoided becoming pregnant since she had in mind to convert. Although the Beis Yosef (13:5) argues on the magid mishna and says that we are concerned that she was mezaneh and became pregnant, in Shulchan Aruch he seemed to come out that she does not have to wait (Beis Shmuel 13:7). Why then is R' Moshe machmir for havchana? Is there any point in havchana to determine whether conception occurred before or after she converted (it shouldn't make a difference for anything)?
3 comments:
i think you are making a mistake, the reason for waiting is both for to know if he was נזרע בקדושה and for יבום
i will explain: for יבום if he was נזרע before the conversion then he is כקטן שנולד דמי and will not do יבום - see מהרש"א on the rashi there!!!
also the concept of נזרע בקדושה is not for knowledge of who the father is or for שכינה but for knowing what type of jew he is, this is proven if you go thru the שקלא וטריא it hink, i have no gemara in front of me
ok - the question is what does "zerah shenizrah b'kdusha" mean? I understood that it depended on the man, so that if he was a jew the whole time then both child before she converted and the child after she converted are considered nizrah b'kdusha.
BUT, i hear what you are saying. It seems that nizrah b'kdusha means that at conception both the mother and father must be jews. if either he or she was a goy at the time of conception, there would not be a mitzvah of yibum when the brother who was conceived after they both convereted dies (and if yibum would be done it would be an issur of eishes ach min haeim). Therefore, you are right, one would need havchana acc. to rava for a jew who lived with a goy and she converted to determine whether this child is considered a paternal brother for yibum with the child conceived after their conversions - and that is what r' moshe means.
However, acc. to shmuel the purpose of havchana by a ger must have something to do with shechina. i am not sure what you mean it is "for knowing what type of jew he is". the only 2 options of why we would have to know if he was nizra b'kdusha is either for shechina (shmuel) or to prevent an issur of aishes ach min haeim (rava).
אמר שמואל וכו' ומקשה הגמרא שהרי בגר וגיורת לא שייך להיות לך לאלקים וכו' ותירצה להבחין בען זרע שנזרע בקדושה, ופרש"י שלא שייך בגר וגיורת הבחנה של יחוס כיון שהם נשואים להדדי וא"כ צ"ב מה תירצה הגמרא? ורק יותר מאוחר ברבא רש"י אומר שסתם עכו"ם מזנה, ונראה מרש"י שכעת אפילו אי לא מזנה יש ענין לדעת אם נזרע בקדושה, ואגב מה שרש"י אומר אח"כ שעכו"ם מזה מבואר במהרש"א שאולי נכתב ע"י תלמיד טועה וא"כ לא ברור שבכל הסוגיא רש"י אומר שיש חשש מזנה הכא עכ"פ משמע מעצם הגמרא שזה לא דין של חשש מזנה עכ"פ בשמואל אלא דין אחר
ומה ששאלת למאי נפ"מ - האמת שאינני יודע כרגע אך כך ברור לי מהשקלא וטריא דגמרא
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