Wednesday, November 25, 2009

Baba Basra 97a - Kiddush on Cooked wine

The gemara says that any wine that is unfit for the mizbei'ach, is unfit for kiddush. The implication of the gemara according to both the Rashbam and Tosafos is that we are coming to the exclusion of something that qualifies as wine to make a bracha of hagafen, but is unfit for kiddush. Therefore, Tosafos and the Rosh explain the gemara doesn't discuss wine that is mevushal. The gemara is looking for something which is wine, but unfit for kiddush due to הקריבהו נא לפחתך, but mevushal wine is either not considered wine for hagafen, or even considered wine for kiddush. Rashi, Rash and R' Tzemach gaon (in rosh) hold that wine that is cooked undergoes a change for the worse and therefore looses its status of hagafen. But, Rabbeinu Tam and the Rosh hold that cooked wine is considered to undergo a change for the better, not a change for the worse so that it retains its full status of wine. The reason it is unfit for the mizbei'ach is because we require wine that doesn't undergo any change at all, but regarding כוס של ברכה and hilchos brachos, so long as the change is for the better, it retains its fulls status of wine. Shulchan Aruch (272:8) cites both opinions, but the rama says the minhag is to use mevushal wine even when non-mevushal wine is available (when the mevushal wine is higher quality). However, the Rosh seems to imply that "mevushal" wine doesn't mean that it was flash cooked in a sealed container so that it doesn't actually dehydrate. The Rosh implies that during the cooking process the wine will dehydrate so that it becomes stronger. The machlokes is whether this change of being stronger and more concentrated is considered an improvement. Based on this, our mevushal should not be considered a change at all regarding the bracha or kiddush, and should be usable even according to rashi and rash because it doesn't dehydrate at all.

Another point - when the gemara says that wine that retains the status of wine for hagafen, but is not prime quality as is therefore unfit for the mizbei'ach, so it can't be used for kiddush either, is this only li'chatchila or even bi'dieved? The rashbam uses the language of "passul" throughout the sugya, implying that הקריבהו נא לפחתך would make the wine unfit even bi'dieved. M.B. (272:1) quotes from the Ramban who also implies that it is passul for kiddush even bi'dieved, but the biur halacha questions why should the p'sul of הקריבהו נא לפחתך be passul even bi'dieved? The biur halacha supports his question from the fact that rashi in menachos 64 says that a weak animal cannot be brought as a korban because of הקריבהו נא לפחתך, yet it would surely be kasher bi'dieved, so why should the wine be passul even bi'dieved? It must be that this passul is given over to the chachamim to decide when to only passul l'chatchila and when to passul even bi'dieved. In other words, the din הקריבהו נא לפחתך is twofold. First, it creates a category of items that are unfit for mizbei'ach and devorim she'bikedusha - and the rabbonon decide what should be in that category. Secondly, it is a din on every individual that even on items that are fit for a mitzvah, one should try to bring the best. See rashi in chulin 23a that an animal missing a limb is passul because of הקריבהו נא לפחתך. Rambam in issurei mizbeiach also writes that a treifa is passul because of הקריבהו נא לפחתך. Clearly, we find that chazal were able to use this passuk to even passul bidieved.

1 comment:

Avi Lebowitz said...

A proof to the ramban that R' Zutra is coming to exclude things that aren't good for kiddush even bi'dieved is: the gemara says that the wine on the top and bottom of the barrel is only good for ni'such on mizbei'ach bidieved. The gemara implies that even for kiddush it would work bidieved, not lichatchila (from the fact that the gemara doesn't say explicitly that it works lichatchila like it does by yayin migito). So, why can't r' zutra be saying that just as it is not lichatchila for ni'such, it is also not lichatchila for kiddush. This implies that he is not just coming to exclude something from the lichatchila, but to say that even bidieved it doesn't work.