Monday, November 26, 2007

Kesubos 82a - Forcing on a positive mitzvah

A few points:
1. Why pick lulav and succah? Rashi says that they are mitzvos that are not very expensive (chulin 132b). Does Rashi mean that only inexpensive mitzvos we force, but we don't force for expensive mitzvos, or does rashi mean that even inexpensive mitzvos which are "mitzva kalla"- light mitzvos as the gemara says in avoda zara 3b, we force, certainly for more important mitzvos? The Rashash in chulin wonders where in the world rashi gets this from. The chasam sofer makes a reference to a shach that one is not obligated to spend more than a fifth on a mitzvas aseh and that is what rashi hints to.
2. Does forcing on a mitzva mean that we whip him until he does it (as it seems from succah and lulva) but ultimately he has to do it on his own, or do we force him to do it (such as milah, we would tie him down and give him a bris whether he likes it or not)?
3. Mitzvah aseh that is matan sechara b'tzida where we do not force (and according to tosafos it seems that we are not allowed to force, not like ramban - see sm"a c.m 107:1), although we cannot force it to be done by tying him down, can we at least whip him until he agrees to do it? This seems to be a machlokes nesivos and r' shlomo kluger - see comment in previous post.
4. Are we forcing the individual to fulfill his obligation or do we force whoever we have to so that the mitzvah gets done? In hilchos mila it says that we force a mohel to do a bris for free if the father doesn't have money - it seems that although it is not the mohel's obligation we would still force the mohel to make sure the mitzvah gets done.
5. Do we force for a mitzvah d'rabonon? See comments on previous post where rashi seems to say we don't whereas tosafos says we do. I found that the Pri Megadim (pesicha koleles 25 - pg 6 second column in old printing) that Rashi says for a mitzvah d'rabonon such as chanuka and megilla which are being violated b'shev v'al ta'aseh we do not force. However, it seems plausible that parsumei mitzvah type mitzvos such as chanuka and megilla where we even require to sell his shirt, even rashi may admit that we force.

1 comment:

Avi Lebowitz said...

6. Usually the concept of forcing on a lo t'aseh doesn't apply, since once it is done, it is done. But, what about a lo ta'aseh that one is continuously violating (i don't mean violating many times, rather the aveira is continuous), would we be kofeh and force him to stop? It would seem to be a kal v'chomer, that if we prevent him from the violation of an aseh, certainly we should prevent him from violating a lo ta'aseh. The pri megadim (see above) also seems to say that a lo ta'aseh that is nimshach would have malkus to prevent the violation. An example would be a kohen married to a gerusha, where we would be kofeh to divorce.