I was asked recently whether someone who works for a large tech company and is entitled to a week vacation must take the vacation during chol hamoed. He prefers to take vacation in the summer when he can actually have a vacation, but then if he takes of chol hamoed they will deduct money from his salary. I don't have an answer, but it seems the question can be broken down into 3 issues:
1. Although in a case where missing work one will not receive their hourly wages, that is not davar ha'aveid (rather missing out on gains). But, perhaps deducting money from a salary that he is entitled to for the work that he will put in this year is considered money already in his hand and qualifies as a davar ha'aveid?
2. Even if loosing salary is davar ha'aveid, since there are still vacation days that he is entitled to they must be taken during chol hamoed. Or perhaps if this person needs a "real" vacation for his emotional well being, that itself is like a davar ha'aveid and therefore he may be entitled to his vacation in which case the extra time off from work which will cause a reduction in his salary is considered davar ha'aveid?
3. Perhaps davar ha'aveid is only necessary for real work such as field work and sechorah, but this person will be sitting in front of a computer and typing (not even writing) which would not be a violation of chol hamoed, so even without davar ha'aveid it should be mutar?
ANY THOUGHTS?
9 comments:
some thoughts, but maybe i will try and search later.
1. i think this is the real issue here. since the salary sturcture is not hourly (as lawyers get paid mimmun wage according to the hours...) then it makes sense that its considered money in his pocket that he has to give up.
2. if the answer to one is that its considered money in his hand, i would think that needing a real vacation for emotional needs will qualify is davar haaved.
3.i was thinking the same, but i think the point in chol hamoed is not to "forget" about the yom tov and therefor sitting in front of a computer will qualify as "work".
עיין מועדים וזמנים ח"ד ש"א
R' yossi,
i took a look at the moadim zemanim that you sent, and also at the debritziner's teshuva (b'er moshe 65). Both of them assume that the opportunity to take a vacation letter would not be davar ha'aveid, unless it is absolutely necessary for health reasons. Neither one really get into the issue. R' shternbach writes a pesak without proofs and the debriztziner makes it seem like he will adress the shailah, but he gives his opinion and then spends pages writing an elaborate shtikel torah on mechavein melachto b'moed (i only looked quickly so if i missed something in their writings that is a raya one way or the other, please let me know). I think the main question still remains: If we assume that the vacation later is absolutely necessary, can one work on chol hamoed even if it will not cost them their job. Do we consider a salary deduction to be davar ha'aveid or harvacha?
RAV MOSHE SAID YOU TAKE CHAL HAOMED
is it printed in igros moshe? if not, who did r' moshe say it to?
btw - i agree that the pashtus is that deduction of salary that you were not yet paid, does not qualify as davar ha'aveid, and one has to take chol hamoed off. i am only suggesting that perhaps we can find a source for salary being already in one's pocket in which case a chiddush can be said that it would be davar ha'aveid. so, i am really looking for a raya one way or the other; i am not really looking to gather names of great torah scholars who say its better to take off chol hamoed since that is the pashtus!.
I have no raayos to bring either way, but frankly, I don't understand: *how* would this qualify as davar haavod? If you're working for, say, $120K a year, that doesn't imply the money is in your hands; merely that if you work the regular expected hours for all 12 months, you can expect to earn that in total, at a rate of $10K dollars a month. Take an unpaid leave-of-absence, or r"l become unable to show up for an extended time, (beyond your sick days and short-term illness coverage), and you certainly won't make that money. Quit your job mid-year, and you also won't make that money. If you want to use your vacation time for summer touring, and your boss is kind enough to extend you *extra* time-off on an unpaid basis, that's not davar haavod - that's your good fortune. In contrast: If you didn't get enough days to cover the yom-tovim, and taking the extra time off will have additional negative impact (give you a bad reputation, affect your possibilties for promotion, etc.) - that could be argued as davar haavod.
- Sholom
hi sholom,
i agree with you so it is difficult for me to argue the other side. but, the salary is probably not based on the "time" the employee spend at work. the salary is based on the employees contribution to the companies profits. in most cases the company won't loose money by the extra few days off - rather the employee will certainly make up the extra work that is expected of him. nevertheless, he will loose 2.5k for a week off, even though at the end of a month or 2 he did all the work that was demanded of him. the deduction of 2.5k from his salary is more of a penalty to prevent others from doing the same, rather than a fair compensation for time missed. maybe that qualifies as davar ha'aveid?
If i am correct that the amount being deducted from one's salary based on time out of work is an unfair deduction since the salary is not based on time and he will have to make up the work anyway - i think there is an indication from rashi that this is considered a davar ha'aveid to allow him to work on chol hamoed.
Rashi in Moed Kattan 11b d.h. im hayu mucharin, in the context of aveilus explains that if a person is a camel driver taking someone on a trip for a month, and if he stops for aveilus he doesn't just loose the week but looses the whole month of pay, he is allowed to work. The responsibility to forfeit your gains is only for that week of aveilus but loosing the entire months pay is called davar ha'aveid. the gemara is assuming that aveilus is more chamur than chol hamoed, so if we see that this is called a loss to allow an avel to work, it is certainly called a loss to allow one to work during chol hamoed.
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