i am going to throw out a raw thought.
when learning the mishna i wondered, why did R' Yehuda say that one can write a shovar for half the amount of the Ksuba and not the whole? it would sounds that he agrees that one cannot forgive the whole Ksuba. This much I found in the Meleches Shlomo (on the mishnayos) that made that diyuk. If so, one can suggest that R' Yehuda agrees that one cannot live without a Ksuba, he just minimizes the amount of the Ksuba. The understanding can be that as we see in the Gemara, R' Meir holds that even if the lady HAS a Ksuba but she THINKS she doesn't, still its forbidden to stay married. Meaning that he holds that she has to have reassurance in the marriage. R' Yehuda that argues disagrees on this point, but he agrees that a marriage needs a Ksuba. The lomdos is that he agrees that Ksuba is part and parcel of a Marriage, and not having a Ksuba is being "half married" which is not possible. R" Yossi that holds you can be mochel the Ksuba orally can still agree to R' Yehuda on this point.
2 comments:
i think that you are making a good point. it seems from the gemara and rashi that according to r' meir there are 2 ways to create a bi'as z'nus: 1. If he reduces the amount of the kesuba in a way that is binding to less that the amount that chazal prescribe, chazal consider it to be a bi'as z'nus. 2. Even if he makes a stipulation that will not be binding and she will actually be entitled to collect the entire kesuba, it is still bi'as z'nus since she thinks that she won't be able to collect everything that she deserves (rashi 56b). The second issue is not applicable according to r' yehuda since he says that the stipualtion is not binding. But, regarding the first issue you may be correct that r' yehuda only disagrees when he reduces the $, but would agree if there wouldn't be a kesuba at all.
As an aside, the gemara 56a that says when she looses her kesuba document it would be a bi'as z'nus is relying on the 2nd issue, that only r' meir seems to hold of, that even though she will be entitled to collect the entire kesuba it still may be a bi'as z'nus.
me and my questions...
learning 56a, i understood that r' yeshuda is saying a din in "Stipulation against the Torah", meaning that he was saying that you cannot get married without a ksuba but could get married with a ksuba and then forgive half. this was the difference between having his stipulation done orally or in writing, because doing it orally means that its a "one step process" whereas you're getting married with a half a ksuba, however writing it as a shovar means you're doing a "2 step process" where as you have a full ksuba and only later being mochel on 1/2. (this i got from rav elyashiv, but don't take my word for it)
if so, understanding the 2nd version in 57a is dificult, because everyone agrees (r"y and r"y) that one can forgive orally in the begining, according to the explenation above it doesn't seem to make sense since you're still getting married without a ksuba??
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