The gemara has a hava amina that the father should be zocheh in ma'aseh yadayim from the fact that he can cause her to take off from work to attend the wedding. But, the gemara says not necessarily because he may only have the right to give her over to chupa either when he compensates her, or if she is not working anyway such as at night or shabbos v'yom tov. R' akiva eiger assumes that the gemara assumes that she is not working on shabbos or yom tov because there is an issur, and therefore asks that the issur of working on shabbos is not d'oraysa, but m'doraysa she can work so from the fact that he can be mevatel her from work to get married should still show that he has rights to ma'aseh yadayim? Rashash answers that shabbos and yom tov is like night, meaning that although it may be permitted to work, it is assumed that she would not be working during those times and that is why he can give her to chupah without effecting her ma'aseh yadayim. However, the Rashash points out that Tosafos seems to hold that Shabbos is chosen because of the issur, rather than being similar to night where it is just not so common to work. Tosafos asks that marriage on shabbos should be an issur d'oraysa of ein mearvin, so how can the gemara speak about marrying her off on shabbos (of course, there is also a problem with making a kinyan, but that is not d'oraysa so it is fair for the gemara to assume that m'doraysa he can marry her off)? Tosafos answers that we aren't speaking about marrying her off on shabbos, rather speaking about marrying her off right before shabbos. Tosafos is bothered, why isn't there bitul melacha, and answers that it is z'man tosefes (which tosafos holds is assur b'melacha d'oraysa). Instead of saying simply that 20 minutes before shabbos is not a normal time to work, Tosafos insists on saying that there is an actual issur melacha, which implies that shabbos and yom tov are not similar to night, like r' akiva eiger's assumption.
What compels Tosafos to say that the issue of shabbos and yom tov is an actual issur?
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very good point, perhaps they hold that even if it isn’t normal for people to work then, but its still going against her ownership of herself if the father has a right to force her.
night, however, is different, because its inherit in the בריאה that night is not a time to work (don't tell the lawyers) לא איברי לילא אלא לגירסא. to put into philosophical terms, we say that a day is parallel to a life cycle בבחינת חדשים לבקרים והמחדש בטובו בכל יום where as day is life and night is death or lack of doing
i thought i read recently somewhere that it is inherent in the briah not to work on sabbath :)
:) it is, first i was laughing hard, but then i thought that we can still kcevh and say that work that is allowed on shabos as cutting the talush etc. is still normal to do on shabbos and you can get paid for it, but night time is 1/60th of death, but i wont push any further...
Do you think that this Mabit is saying that shabbos is inherently not meant for work, or just that Adam understood that there will be an issur to perform melocha? thanks
Mabit in Shaar Heyesodos 34
והכיר אדם הראשון כי האל קידש את יום השביעי וכלה בו ושבת בו ממה שראה שלא כלה כל מלאכה יום ששי כ"א בסופו כאילו נכנס כבר יום שביעי, וכמו שדרשו על ויכל אלהים ביום השביעי, והבין כי לא רצה לעשות שום מלאכה בו וששבת בו וקידש אותו במה שנזהר שלא תיעשה סוף המלאכה כ"א ברגע האחרון ולא תכנס אפילו רגע אחת ביום שביעי, וכן ראה והשיג ביום ששי ממשלת שבעה כוכבי לכת הממונים על שבעה ימי בראשית הששי ליום ששי, השביעי והוא שבתאי התחיל בליל שבת וידע כי יהיו חוזרות חלילה בכל שבעת ימים, והכיר בזה כי יום זה שנברא היה ששי ליצירה ויום שבת ששבת בו כמו שנזכר היה שביעי ושבת בו אע"פ שלא נצטוה כי ידע רצון קונו לשבות ביום שבת ורצה לעשות נחת רוח לפניו לשבות גם הוא בחברתו, וקיבל שכר על זה כי השכר הוא על המצווה ועושה לא על הטוב בעיני בני אדם או לפי ההנהגה המדינית, וכמו שביארנו בתחלת עיקר זה
shabbos is about not doing "creative work" (as any kiruv professional should know...) we are dealing with work that you get paid for, i.e. moving furniture. the mabit is describing shabbos as the end of creation, that is were r' avi must have gotten his wild idea that we don't work on shabbos...
I was asking if the Mabit is corroborating Reb Avi's view? (agav, I didn't understand the kiruv line)
i am not understanding, do we need the mabit to tell us you can't work on shabbos? or that if the torah says you can't work it is inherently this way?
surely we cant work on shabbos because creation requires a shabbos. meaning that the world was created to work towards a goal and then to reach the goal. shabbos is the experience of reaching the goal of having arrived at the destination. this is why it is something of olam habbah, we work oin this world to reach a goal.
the kiruv line is like this. the most asked question about shabbos is that we can understand why 1 billions years ago when they lived in caves and had to rub stones to get a fire this was not permitted because its not resting, but TODAY in the MODERN age when you can flick on a light, what’s wrong with doing that on shabbos???
the answer is that we are not commanded to rest on shabbos, we are commanded to stop all CREATIVE ACTIVITY. the 39 melachos in the mishkan parallel the acts of creation of the world, and the mishkan IS a "miniature world" as explained by the sefarim. the concept of shabbos is to drill to us that we are working towards a goal and one day will experience the having arrived to the destination that is nothing other then what you built in this world.
this is the idea of מיגו דאיתקצאי
going back to our discussion, shabbos is not a time to lay comatose (although there is a mitzvah of sleeping) it is a time of living in a different experience. As far as work is concerned that is not creative and you can get paid for, from the torah perspective that is allowed. THE SPIRIT of the law does have a resting aspect as well. As the Ramban says that if one works all day in the market place he WILL be transgressing a prohibition of resting, and the Rambam holds that this is the reason for the laws of Muktzeh. BUT it is not the main torah idea of shabbos.
Thank you for your elaboration and clarifications.
I mentioned the Mabit only for the following reason: The discussion in the comments began if there is a distinction between the not working at night and the not working of Shabbos, putting aside the prohibition. Was Adam resting on Shabbos (acc to Mabit) the same as Avraham Avinu, as an eino metzuvah v'oseh or slightly different (as I was writing the difference, it did not pass the writing test, so I will leave it as an open-ended question). Was Adam acting exactly as the avos?
thank you
the ramban in his intro to torah says that the world on the torah are parallel and therefore one can understand the torah based on looking at the world or one can understand the world based on knowing torah.
avrohom didn't learn torah like we do but he "figured it out" based on looking at the world. king solomon however did the opposite. this is also the meaning of the gemara that avrohom learned torah from his advising kidneys. but we can't elaborate on everything....
the process described by the mabit sounds exactly like the one avrohom went thru - having a correct understanding of the torah based on a correct observation of creation. (we can't do this well as we are tainted and are mind isn't pure, we can only learn torah directly and hope to get something of its light)
we however, do it the other way by observing the strict laws that absorb in us the correct understanding to what g-d wants us to learn. Hopefully we did some of that today….
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