Thursday, April 19, 2007

Chagiga 13a - Lifnei Iver: Two Sides of the River

Tosafos explains that if there would be another non-jew willing to teach torah to this non-jew then the jew would not be in violation of lifnei iver for teaching him since it is like "one side of the river" - meaning that the issur is accessible to the goy. 2 points:
1. Tosafos implies that there would not even be an issur derabonon of misaya'ah for the jew to teach the goy which there normally is even in cases of "one side of the river" as tosafos writes shabbos 3a. Tosafos would hold that the issur misaya'ah is related to tochacha or beis din metzuvin l'hafrisho, and would only restrict assisting another jew in an issur but would not apply to a goy.
2. The Mishneh L'melech (Hil. Malveh 4:2) is medayek from Tosafos that if a second jew would be willing to teach the goy torah, it would not make it "one side of the river" to allow the first to teach torah to they goy. His rationale is that since there is an issur lifnei iver for the first jew, the fact that the second jew is willing to violate lifnei iver and teach him, won't remove the issur of lifnei iver from the first. This does not mean to say that the goy must have a way of learning torah b'heter in order to remove lifnei iver from the first jew, bec. even if a goy would be willing to teach him that is not b'heter since a goy cannot even learn never mind teach. Rather the rationale is that if there is lifnei iver for one then there is lifne iver for all since it is not logical to say that the first jew removes the lifnei iver for the second, and the second removes it for the first.


Anonymous said...

on your second point, Rav Ovadya writes somewhere that this is relevant to restaurants in Israel staying open on fast days where the person can go somewhere else to eat, but all of the other stores are owned by Jews (in America it may be different).

Yossie Schonkopf said...

regarding דין מסייע by a goy, see שלחן ערוך הגר"ז הלכות גזילה סעיף כ"ג בסופו דאסור מדין מסייע לעזור לגנב וגזלן לעשות שינוי שיועיל שנוכל לקנות ממנו ומסיים שם בסוגריים דה"ה לגוי ומשמשע שקאי על דין זה, ובספר אמרי יעקב על הגר"ז סובר שכל מקום שהגר"ז כתב דינו בסוגריים הוא לא בטוח כ"כ בזה עכ"פ לדבריך תוספות יחלוק ויסבור שבחד עברא דנהרא יהיה מותר לסייע לגוי וצ"ע
we just this last night in a shiur.

Yossie Schonkopf said...

speaking to the Rabbi today about this, he pulls out the tractate shabbos 3a and there in the gilyon hashas is a note saying to look at the.... turei even here in chagiga 13 in the avnei miluim. he discusses this issue there and he holds that there is never a din of מסייע. obviously the tosfos there and rosh argue. there is an important shach in y"d 151:6 that is quoted in the fotnote on the new turei even.

Avi Lebowitz said...

i have seen the turei even and the shach who says there is no misaya'ah to a yisroel mumar. there is also an important dagul mervava on that shach who explains the shach to mean that the issur misaya'ah does not apply to someone who is intentionally violating the issur. i think it is coming to explain a tosafos in avoda zara 6b who makes an ukimta of trei avri d'nahara, which implies that if it would be chad avrah d'nahara it would be mutar and there is no issur of misaya'ah.