Sunday, April 29, 2007

Chagiga 22a - Toveling One Vessel in Another

The gemara says that if the outer vessel does not have an opening of "shfoferes hanod" such as a wine bottle, one cannot be tovel smaller utensils inside the outer one bec. the water in the outer bottle is not considered to be attached to the mikvah. However, if the outer bottle itself is tameh, the Torah clearly allows one to immerse that bottle in the mikvah and by definition considers the water that is inside the bottle as attached to the mikvah for the need of the outer bottle. Therefore, when the outer bottle needs tevillah one can be tovel even the smaller utensils inside the bottle, bec. when the outer bottle is tameh, the water inside the bottle is considered attached to the mikvah (this is the peshat in "migu" here). But, this argument is only applicable if the outer bottle has the same level of requirement of tevillah as the inner utensils. However, if the outer bottle is only tameh midrabonon and the inner utensils are tameh midoraysa, we don't consider the water inside the bottle to be attached to the mikvah from a torah perspective and the utensils would remain tameh (assuming the bottle opening is less than shfoferes hanod).
Based on this, when we tovel brand new keilim, one cannot be tovel small metal utensils inside a glass bottle which does not have an opening of shfoferes hanod, bec. the glass bottle only needs tevillah midrabonon and the metal utensils need tevillah midioraysa, so migu does not apply.


Yossie Schonkopf said...

according to your explanation, if the outer has 1 reason דרבנן that requires טבילה and the inner has 2 reasons מדרבנן you will be able to be טובל rav elyashiv proposes not and with that answers a question.

Avi Lebowitz said...

what is the difference whether there is 1 or 2 reasons to be tovel? once the outer requires tevillah midrabonon so the water inside is considered mikvah water midrabonon and therefore is methaer the inner kli which only needs tevillah midrabonon. Tosafos in megillah who is mechadesh that one who is only chayev based on a double derabonon can't be motzei one who is chayev based on one derabonon. But that is only when the combination of the 2 derabonons creates a chiyuv (so it weakens the level of chiyuv), but when you have 2 independent reasons midrabonon to require tevillah, it does not strengthen or weaken the chiyuv tevillah.