Sunday, April 15, 2007

chagiga 8

question: if a person is obligated to bring the 1st animal from chulin and he is obligated to feed his family, then each one should need the 1st to be from chulin. in other words, i am confused as to the nature of the obligation to feed the family on the 1st day kurban chagiga, are we talking about young children? a wife? do the family have an independent chiyuv or are the an extension? if you understand my babble i would love to hear an explanation. thanks.


Anonymous said...

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing. Does each adult male in the family have to bring a seperate Olas Reiyah and shalmei chagiga, or is it one per family? Can families join in one korban?

Yossie Schonkopf said...

exactly, in other words it seems that it is on the father to feed his adult children, similar to the chiyuv simcha of the wifes which is the husbands obligation (tosfos before, gemara r"h and kidushin). This seems to be a chidush! how do we determine who has an independent chiyuv and who doesn't? where do we know this din from? etc.

Avi Lebowitz said...

first, there seems to be a machloeks whether women are chayev in chagiga. they are not chayev in ri'iya and are chayev in simcha (or at least their husbands must provide them with korban meat - the gemara in arvei pesachim about nashim b'rauy lahem is after the churban). tosafos 2b d.h. shomeia, says that women are included in chagiga, but the rambam (2:4) implies that women are exempt.
one way or the other, the "eaters" that we are speaking about are young children and the wife (acc. to rambam) who do not have their own obligation of chagiga, yet they eat meat of the korban to be mekayem simcha. Rashi 8a clearly states that the simcha on the first day of yom tov is accomplished by eating from chagiga (bec. all shalemi simcha on the first day have the status of chagiga).

Yossie Schonkopf said...

ur confusing me:
it can't be young children beacuse we don't need a drasha of "tofel" for children!
What your saying in rashi i also don't understand, 1st how does rashi know this, 2nd so let him not be mekayem chagiga and only be mekayem simcha with money of maaser, in other words, if he is "yotze" the din of chagiga with one let the rest be simcha straight up.

Avi Lebowitz said...

i don't understand the problem. Rashi says in d.h. chizkya, that all animals brought as a shelamim on the first day assume a status of chagiga (not just standard shalmei simcha), therefore one would assume that even if one would bring many animals as korbanos, they would all have to be from chulin - the drasha teaches that one can be tofel, meaning so long as the base is from chulin, all the rest can be from ma'aser sheini.

Anonymous said...

a) how does RASHI know this.
b) are we speaking of young children? can't be because why do we need a drasha, if older children why dont they have their own obligation


Avromi said...

i was asked same question during daf and answered like you Avi - were talking about children and others who dont have a chiyuv chagiga - theirs could be a tofel one.

I was bothered by loshon hamishna "shelamim merubim" yet rav chisda explains par gadol - thanks

Anonymous said...

to R' Avi.

I don’t know of any opinion who holds that women are obligate in Chagiga, the Tosfos 2 B: is only regarding Shoma Veino ever in the Breisa in 6 B it is quite clear that women are Patur.

Avi Lebowitz said...

you are right - thank you for the correction. the only discussion is whether women are obligated in simcha and how to explain that obligation. the gemara in chagiga 6a and 6b implies they are obligated whereas the gemara in rosh hashana implies that it is their husbands chiyuv to be misameach them (see tosafos and ba'al hameor in r"h). But regarding the chagiga women are definitely exempt just like with the olas ri'iya as you point out.

Yossie Schonkopf said...

there is an argument however if 1/2 deaf people are obligated in chagiga tosfos holds yes but rambam holds only who is chayav in reiya is chayav in chagiga.

similarly there is an argument what the source for the ptur of women in chagiga, rashi holds 6b it is a timely mitzva - see chzon ish in end of letter to the avi ezri printed in the back of avi ezri (check me out on both accounts- not 100% sure)

Yossie Schonkopf said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Yossie Schonkopf said...

i spoke to a Rebbi of mine regarding the original question and he had the same problem.
הוא דייק ברמב"ם שמצוות חגיגה הוא הבאת הקרבן ולאו דווקא האכילה וא"כ תמה מה החידוש למ"ד טופלין בהמה לבהמה שהרי כבר יוצא בבהמה הראשונה. וע"ז חשב לתרץ דהנפ"מ שחל על זה שם חגיגה ומותר להביאו ביו"ט משא"כ סתם נו"נ דאסור מדאורייתא. שוב הקשיתי לו דמצד האוכלין קשה דהם ג"כ חייבין בחגיגה וא"כ הם ג"כ צריכים שבהמה ראשונה תהיה מחולין וא"כ מאי אהני דין טפילה ותירץ לי דאולי איירי שכולם שותפין בחגיגה והטו"א בפירוש אומר דיוצאין דין חגיגה בשותפות.
היוצא מדברינו, שכאן בגמרא כולם יוצאים דין חגיגה בשותפות ואולי של"צ בכלל לאכול החגיגה בעצם אלא רק להביא (וודאי מדין נותר צריך שיאכל הקרבן) והכא החידוש של טפילה הוא שלכל הקרבנות יש שם חגיגה ומותר להקריבן ביו"ט.
what do you think?