Monday, April 23, 2007

Chagiga 17 - Yom Tavuach - Slaughter Day

Is the Yom Tavuach a halachic institution or is it just the first possible day for korbanos to be brought so that is when most people would bring their olas ri'iya and chagiga. Is one required to bring their korban on the yom tavuach when atzeres falls out on shabbos, or can they wait for a later day (if not for the concept of zrizin makdimin)?
It seems to me that the Yom Tavuach is a day recognized midioraysa for the main day for bringing korbanos. The gemara on 17b tries to prove that there is no tashlumin for atzeres from beis hillel who says that when atzeres falls on friday there is no yom tavuach, which the gemara assumes to mean that there is no yom tavuach at all - meaning no tashlumin. The Turei Even points out that in the hava amina the gemara could not have thought that there is no day at all for korbanos bec. the end of the mishna says that beis hillel agrees if atzeres falls on shabbos then sunday will be the yom tavuach. The gemara means that although sunday will be the yom tavuach, there will not be any other opportunity for tashlumin. Based on this the gemara is clearly holding that the concept of a yom tavuach will exist even if there is no "tashlumin". This implies that since the korban cannot be brought on shabbos, yet the torah requires it to be brought, it is as if the torah is saying that the main day to bring the korbanos is sunday.
Therefore, even though we hold that there is tashlumin, it still seems that the yom tavuach is midioraysa the day that korbanos must be brought (similar to the first day of yom tov that falls during the week), and the remaining days are only tashlumin if they were not brought on the yom tavuach.
What is the din if one is a chi'ger on atzeres which falls on shabbos and heals by the yom tavuach? Or if one is a chi'ger on the yom tavuach and heals afterward? Do we disregard the first day and consider all remaining days tashlumin for the yom tavuach?


Yossie Schonkopf said...

על חידוש זה אפשר לומר שתלוי כהר העומד בשערה. מנין כל זה? ולגבי דינך השני בחיגר פשוט שכל הספק תלוי בחידושך אך מעניין שבדומה לזה יש שיטת הרמב"ן בסוכה מ"ח (מובא ב"הערות") לגבי שמיני עצרת. דהיינו דשמיני עצרת הוא יו"ט בפנ"ע באופן שאם היה חיגר ונתרפא בשמיני עצרת חייב בקרבנות אף שוודאי אם הביא קרבנות בסוכות ל"צ שוב להביא בשמיני עצרת ולפ"ז מובן יותר ההו"א בגמרא לעיל

Avi Lebowitz said...

I am not sure which part you see as the BIG jump, even though i agree it is a chidush. Regarding the possibility of a yom tavuach even if there would not be a concept of tashlumin is clear (as turei even points out) bec. the gemara accepts the possibility that shavuos won't have tashlumin, yet the mishna states explicitly that there would still be a yom tavuach. The concept of a yom tavuach without a mekor of tashlumin is b'hechrach saying that the torah by not allowing korbanos on shabbos is automatically sanctioning a yom tavuach on sunday. The only jump is whether we regard the yom tavuach as the "primary" day for korbanos.

Yossie Schonkopf said...

agreed, this is what i was referring to. even in the הו"א all you see is that it was a one day of תשלומין.
I once said over a "vort" to a brisker rosh yeshiva, he turns to me with his ice cold litvish eyes that imbude such real true warmt the kind that is not a slap behind the back type and said:
דו הוסט א תורת כהנים אף דעם
do you have a drasha to support this...