Thursday, January 11, 2007
Morid Hageshem
It comes out that acc. to Reb Yoshoshua that Even though we are not mazkir morid hageshem bepeh in shmone esrea but we still do a maseh of nisuch hamayim which is to bring water which comes out to be a stirah in honhaga. (this is why the gemorah thought that acc. to reb Yehoshua you should not do nisuch hamyim until you mention morid hagashem. until the gemorah says it is halacha lemoshe misinai but that still doesn't explain the honhaga). It seem to me that there are two inynim in mayiam Mayim in the rakia and mayim in the tehom. Morid hageshem is for mayim from the rakia and nisuch hamiyim is for mayim from the tehom so reb yehoshua holds that to do something to for the mayim from the tehom is not a problem on sukkos but to mention that mayim should come from the rakia is a siman kelala.
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11 comments:
r' yehoshua's opinion in the mishnah isn't consistent with his opinion in the braisa. in the mishna he holds that we only mention rain on shemini atzeres, but in the braisa he seems to hold that it is at the time of the placing down of the lulav on the 7th day itself (as rashi explains 2b and the gemara implies 3a). since r' yehoshua is concerned about a siman klala, how can rain be mentioned on the 7th day of succos?
Tosfos argues with rashi and also the hagaha on the bottom of 2b says rashi agrees with tosfos.
Avi: A) note that there are alternate ways to understand R' Yehoshua's opinion of "m'shaas hanachaso" than Rashi, who suggests this means you start saying mashiv haruach during the 7th day - see mhr"v ranshberg on 2B. B) It seems hard to escape the fact, however, that the Mishna and Braisa have different versions of R' Yehoshua - at least the gemarah on 3a assumes so, when it asks "Which R' Yehoshua, if the one of the Mishna, then ..., if the one of the Briasa, then ..." I guess you must say it's "tray tanaaim aliba d'rav Yehoshua". C) To Zvi's question, however, that what we say in tefilah contradicts what we do with nisuch hamayim - I don't really understand why this is a problem. We understand that it may be appropriate to "ask" for rain later than we are "mazkir" rain; similarly, we may do acts of "ritzuy" for the upcoming seasons rain, knowing that Succos is the time of judgement for rain, even if we aren't yet "mazkir" rain in our tefilos. Both nisuch and the 4 minim are such acts of ritzuy.
- Sholom Fried
Shalom, Does Reb Yehoshua agree that lulav is a act of riztui on geshamim it is not clear to me that he agrees with Reb Eliezer in this nekudah you can be medayek from the gemorah in rosh hashana 15a that it is clear that nisuch is meraseh on mayim but the gemora does not say anything about lulav there why not? maybe because its not muskam.
In addition to Sholom Fried's point #3, we find that the Kohen Gadol davened for rain in the Kodesh Hakedoshim on Yom Kippur even though he clearly didn't mean for that rain to come until after Succos.
It seems that certain opportunities for Tefila are to precious to pass up, and therefore we take advantage of them even when they are not in their proper time. This would also be the case regarding nisuch hamayim.
Zvi: I'm not sure I can prove R' Yehoshua agrees the minim are l'ratzos on rain, but when R'Eliezer argues his position in the beraisa (2b) to start mashiv haruach from the time of taking the lulav, because the minim are l'ratzos, R' Yehoshua's response isn't Who says it's l'ratzos!?, but rather rain on succos is a siman k'lala. I see no reason to suspect he disagrees.
Which gemarah did you mean on Rosh Hashana 15a?
- Sholom
he meant r"h 16a 2 lechem in shvuos Omer on Pesahc etc.
I am not sure what the issue here is. It's clear we are judged for water on succos so we do an act that shows we are using water for the right reasons. Prayer is another issue, because prayer by definition is asking for it. The only thing is that as the gamara will deal tomorrow we can be meratze by mentioning before the actual request comes in.
Yossie
I don't think it is so pashut to make the chiluk and say that tefilla is something diffrent than nisuch because the gemorrah itself is tola when you say morid hageshem with nisuch hamayim by asking who is the man deamamr who says nisuch is all seven days. acc. to you let the gemorra just say it works acc. to everyone nisuch lechud and teffila lechud.
i hear.
Reb Anonymous,
until 4b the gemara assumes that ritzuy mentioning and requesting are all together. so i think reb zvi's point is a valid one, no?
as an aside, the basic drush on the nisuch hamayim is that the upper water represent the spiritual and the lower water separated from the upper is the physical. This is why Torah is water but also the 10 tribes were lost because they enjoyed the bathhouses to much.
the nisuch in the mikdash is the reunification of the lower waters with the upper waters in the place of the ultimate connection.
perhaps, the way to get the rain is 1st to reconnect to the upper worlds and then get new water coming from above. hence, a 2 step process we connect to a higher and receive from above. rav yehushua might hold that although ritzuy as in directly to rain can only start at time of actual request the preceding work of connecting to above can come prior.
i think i am saying the same as reb zvi in different words. am i?
Yes Reb Yossi
That was the basic direction I was going in. that the hachana of the mayim of the tehom (nekava) can be done before the mayim from the rakia (zachar) are asked for. and the way of getting the mayim from the rakia is al yidei teffila as we see by adom harishon. Veadom ayin lavod es adama.
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