There is an enormous amount of discussion on the issue all over the internet. My intent is to try and simplify the material (thanks to Martin Handwerker a regular attendee at my daf yomi shiur for his help in calculating).
There is a machlokes first recorded by the rambam (Kiddush Hachodesh chapter 9-10) how to calculate the solar year. Shmuel (eruvin 56a) simplifies the calculation of the year to 365 days 6hrs. However, R' Adda (commentaries on Rambam attribute this to R' Adda, but i do not know where it comes from in the Talmud) gives a more accurate calculation of 365d 5hrs 997chal 48reg = 365d 5hrs 55min 25sec (approx.).
The actual astronomical solar year is 365d 5hrs 48min 46sec.
Although R' Adda is more accurate in conforming with the astronomical calculation, the minhag was to simplify and follow shmuel even though we drift from the true equinox a little more than 5min per year. R' Moshe Feinstein (Igros Moshe O.C. 4:17, 5:17) responded to a suggestion to follow the R' Adda equinox by asking the questioner if he thought he knew more than all the Rishonim and Achronim who decided to follow shmuel.
The original calendar (Julian) also simplified the system and was totally consistent with Shmuel. Therefore, the secular equinox was on Sept. 21 or 22 (depending on the conversion of the extra 6hrs per year by making Feb. 29 days), so 60 days later was Nov. 21 or 22. However, there is a discrepancy of approx. 11 minutes per year between shmuel and the actual solar year which will cause the calendar to be ahead approx. 3 days for every 400 years.
In the 1500's Pope Gregory moved the calendar ahead by 11 days to compensate for the discrepancy of the past 1500+ years (11 min per year = approx. 11 days per 1500) and implemented a system to calculate for the extra 3 days per 400 years. The secular calendar changed from the Julian/Shmuel calendar to the "Gregorian" calendar. Therefore, in the time of Gregory they began Tal Umatar 11 days later than the Julian date - Dec. 2 or 3rd. Since then another 400 years have passed which makes the Gregorian calendar another 3 days ahead of the Julian/Shmuel calendar - so we ask for rain on the night of Dec. 5 or 6 which is the night after the day of Dec. 4 or 5.
Regarding the minhag to ask for rain 60 days after the equinox rather than earlier (7 cheshvon), R' Moshe cites Rashi 10a that we follow the custom of Bavel even though in other places we may have a greater need for rain (see Rosh).
8 comments:
Avi - thanks for sharing the calendaric background. I have always found this discrepancy interesting.
Two haaros:
a) You reference the Rosh, who held (along with the Rambam in his parush hamishnayos) that while Bavel and E"y each have their own dates, each country should be entitled to its own time to begin and end asking for rain, based on its own needs. The Rosh has a teshuva (4:10) that's historically fascinating and worth seeing inside; it describes how one pesach night, he decided to "assert" his shita in shul the next day and *not* stop asking for rain. The outburst which ensued in shul so upset the Rosh that he wrote the teshuva immediately on chol hamoad, despite his usual custom not to write on chol hamoad, as he comments at the end of the teshuva.
b)The change to the Gregorian calendar in 1582 (Oct 4, 1582 was followed by Oct 15, 1582) was not adopted universally at the same time - Russia held out until 1918, so they recorded different dates than the rest of Europe until that time. Some older seforim reference the date difference (we being saying v'san tal umatar on ... which is ... in Russia").
- Sholom
i just saw a quote (i think from the chazon ish) that anyone saying tekufas shmuel is mistake is a kofer! he writes about some chacham that said along those lines that he is a yre shamayim non-the-less he was a kofer bshogeg!
thanks for the post!
yossie
would r' adda qualify as a kofer for introducing a more accurate number?
also, i think we pasken "kefira tzricos kavana", so i am not sure if there is a musag of "kofer b'shogeg".
but of course books with these kind of kana'us statements (if they were in fact said, they were probably said as a joke!) sell a lot better than the chazon ish's seforim.
its in his book, o"c 135:4 see there!!!
yossie
a very loose quote:
know that tkufas shmuel is also part of torah.... some times the words of chazal are based on tradition and other times based on ruach hakodesh...and what the "itim lebinah" wrote that shmuel took an outdated system ...is one of the falsehoods that the evil inclination likes like the inclination for idolatry and although the author is a yare shamayim but he made a mistake and thought you may things like these and worshiped the "minos bshogeg"...
yossie
i will end off with a statement from the ramchal, to the effect of: when chazal discuss the spiritual root it doesn't always have to be exactly so in the physical world - example: genes for blue eyes are not necessarily blue!
i think this issue is so important in our days and it should be left for the gedolim to decide. we all grew up in a western society and are very much part of it - we are talking about people who ARE torah.
science vs torah is like a person in a dark room trying to discern objects by touching them in the dark vs the one who flicks on the light! (a mashal i saw)
sorry if I’m preaching
wow! i really know how to push your buttons!
i found the chazon ish in 138:4. thanks. very interesting. he does not call the person a "kofer b'shogeg", rather he says that the mi'nus was said b'shogeg bec. he thought that he has a right to make such statements.
regarding the shitah of the chazon ish: he seems to hold that it is impossible for chazal to have adapted their premise based on the math or science of the time (i don't understand why he considers it mi'nus to assume that - but i see that is in fact what he says).
He writes that all the scientific and mathematical premise of the statements found in chazal have to be either from mesorah or ruach hakodesh. he also seems to explain that the tekufah of shmuel was meant for the establishing the halacha, but the tekufah or r' adda was a more precise tekufah passed on to chachamim who understood sod ha'ibur for the purpose of witness interrogation.
torah is a fire! reb avi, can you email me how to post a link, thanks!
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