2 points.
1. The maskana of the gemara 39a that water and salt are not batul bec. they are yesh lo matirin and therefore can only be carried within the overlap techum of the owners of the water and flour, seems to be against the tzlach. The tzlach suggests that yeish lo matirin is a limitation only on eating since it can only be done once, but on a use which doesn't consume the item even yeish lo matirin is batul - why would this not be batul?
2. i posted this point as a comment.
1. The maskana of the gemara 39a that water and salt are not batul bec. they are yesh lo matirin and therefore can only be carried within the overlap techum of the owners of the water and flour, seems to be against the tzlach. The tzlach suggests that yeish lo matirin is a limitation only on eating since it can only be done once, but on a use which doesn't consume the item even yeish lo matirin is batul - why would this not be batul?
2. i posted this point as a comment.
5 comments:
re: your 1st point,
the idea of 'yesh lo matirin' applying only to eating and not to carrying is becasue by carrying you want to do it today and tmomorrow, for example a chair you want to use today and tomorrow, so it no longer called 'yesh lo matirin' because today's use will not be available tomorrow. Here, we are talking about carrying a food object for the purpose of eating, therefor yesh lo matirin applies since you will only eat it once. (am i missing something??)
re: your 2nd point,
i read and reread and am not sure what you are saying.
(by the way, there is zlach on this part of the sugya, found on tosfos 38a)
regarding my first point - i think you are correct that we consider the use of any food item to be the eating of it so it is yeish lo matirin.
I was trying to point out that even though the issur is not in the act of eating, rather in the act of carrying out of the techum of the water owner, and that is something that can be done multiple times, so you can't say "don't carry it today out of the techum b'issur since instead you can carry it tommorow b'heter" - bec. you can carry it out of the techum both today and tommorow. nevertheless, it is called yeish lo matirin since the primary use of it is to eat and it won't be available to eat both today and tommorow.
regarding my second point - i will try to edit my post to make it more clear.
POINT 2:
Tosafos 38a at the start of the sugya explains that the techum of the water owner is not considered yeish lo matirin since techum is dependent on the item having the name of the owner on it and the name of the dough goes by the flour owner, not the water owner.
Rashi explains that Yeish lo matirin is assur bec. instead of eating it today b'issur, eat it tommorow b'heter. Meaning, that even something which is batul b'rov is still not heter gamur, and is regarded as eating b'issur. Based on this explanation why should there not be an issue of yesh lo matirin by the dough?
The sevara of yeish lo matirin not being batul is that instead of eating it b'issur now i.e. through bittul, eat it b'heter tomorrow. This only applies when the right to eat it now is based on bitul b'rov heter. However, here the water is not batul in the flour, rather we are saying that the water itself has no chashivus relative to the flour, and therefore is not regarded as significant part of this dough. We are not relying on bittul b'rov heter (which would still be considered "issur"). Rather, we are saying that no portion of this dough is owned by the water owner since the water is not a significant contribution to the dough (even if there was just as much water as flour we would say the water is insignificant, bec. we are not using regular bitul here). Therefore, carrying out of the techum of the water owner is not called using it b'issur at all. So, there is no rationale to say instead of using it b'issur today, use it b'heter tommorow, bec. carrying out of the water owners techim is not called using it b'issur.
In the end of the gemara to explain r' ashi, Tosafos (2nd answer) explains that the water and salt do have chashivus and contribute significantly to the bread so the name of the owner of the water and salt is on the dough. So, carrying out of the water owners techum is called using it b'issur and we can apply the concept instead of eating it b'issur today, use it b'heter tommorow.
Reb avi, You write:
"Meaning, that even something which is batul b'rov is still not heter gamur, and is regarded as eating b'issur."
is this so simple? see pischei t'shuva yoreh d'eah 116:10
in any case, i understand your point now, shkoyach!
r' yossi,
i was anticipating your comment that bitul b'rov is still called issur - which is difficult to fit with shitos who say that issur is not chozer v'neor bec. the issur turns into heter. But, it is really a hearah on rashi's interpretation of davar sheyesh lo matirin, rather than a hearah on me.
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