Tosafos (d.h. ben) says that sometimes we don't use yom echad b'shana chashuv shana, but we require full days mei'ais le'ais. The example Tosafos uses is becoming Bar and Bas mitzvah, where we say 13/12 and 1 day - "that one days is to complete the mei'ais le'ais". I understood Tosafos to mean that really you need 13 complete years to the hour, but since it is difficult to remember the time you were born, we require 13 years plus a day. So, even if one was born adar 7th toward evening (right before shekiah of adar 8), by requiring him to wait the extra day (bar mitzvah would be ohr l'adar 8), we would insure that we have 13 complete years. But, if someone does remember when they were born, they would not have to wait the entire extra day (unless we are to assume that chazal made a lo plug). Obviously this is not the predominant custom. I found that the magen avraham 53:13 quotes from the Bach that as soon as your 13th birthday comes, you are bar mitzvah even if you were born later that day (the extra day is just to the exclusion of using miktzas hayom kikulo on the last day before your birthday). The Shach in C.M. 35:1 (mentioned in Magen Avrohom) cites the divrei chamudos who understood Tosafos in R.H. like I explained, and the shach argues that when tosafos says mei'ais le'ais they don't really mean down to the hour, he therefore concurs with the Bach. I also found that the Mishneh l'melech (Ishus 2:21) explained the Tosafos the way I did, and that according to this Tosafos the Bar Mitzvah would be on your birthday at the hour of the day you were born. But, he cites many opinions who hold like the Bach (Tosafos in Nida and Erchin, Rashbah and mashmaos of gemara in Yevamos), and therefore rules like the Bach (not like our Tosafos).
9 comments:
reb avi, i agree with all that you say, just one point. i think that tosfos main point regarding our sugya is to point out that its not enough 11+a day and 12+a day, as would be the din by a par, am i correct?
yes - tosafos point is that we do not consider a 12 year old (who is in his 13th year) to be bar mitzvah based on yom echad b'shana. the only question is, what do we require instead, completing the year (i.e. bar mitzvah on morning of 13th birthday, like we assume), or completing a full 13 years by the hours (i.e. bar mitzvah on 13 birthday at the time of day he was born, as tosafos seems to assume).
I meant to say "on the evening of 13th birthday" rather than "on morning of 13th birthday".
also, it would come out that according to the standard approach that bar mitzvah begins on the eve. of your b-day, it doesn't matter where in the world you are. but acc. to tosafos approach where you have to complete the hours on you b-day, i one was born in California at 1pm, and they move to New York, their bar mitzvah would be at 1pm california time, which would be 4pm new york time!
your last point re CA vs NY is very interesting, can this be debated?
In Minchas Shlomo, when he discusses hatzoloh returning home on shabbos, he writes on the bottom that he asked permission of r' moshe to argue on his heter, before printing the teshuva. so, if that is what you mean when you say "can this be debated", then of course :)
But, if you mean to ask me what i think, i think that you should require 13 years to the hour in the place you were born. the halachic international dateline would complicate matters even further!
needs iyun.
reb avi:
would you say acc. to tos. that you could even celebrate your bar mitzvah on an earlier calendar date if at your birthplace you would already be 13?
excellent point! i think anything that is dependant on Tekufa is determined by es les, but anything that depends on date is not. the chidush of tosfos is that although bar mitzvah is defenitley a date thing, still it has something of a mes les. that is that mes les is not a din in hours but a din in the date itself. if so, he probably would agree in the NY CA case that the 2pm time is what counts/ just a thought.
yossie s
it is a machlokes acharonim (divrei chamudos and Aruch Laner) whether Tosafos holds that one who knows the time of day they were born will become bar mitzvah in middle of the day or the chachamim made a lo plug and he will only become bar mitzvah at the end of the day. If you look at the Rama in Orach Chaim 53:10 he clearly holds our minhag of the previous night (see mishna berura there).
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