The gemara implies that there is a technical requirement to hear from beis din "mekudash" that is needed to obtain the status of a shliach beis din to be believed about which day was established as rosh chodesh.
Tosafos asks that although levi did not hear from beis din "mekudash", how can he allow them to ignore the fact that yom kippur is actually a day later. Tosafos seems to answer that not only the beis din of yerushalaim has the power to establish the calendar, but even the local beis din in bavel that considered yom kippur to be a day earlier than it was in yerushalaim, is binding. The Turei E'ven elaborates with many questions on this premise, including the fact that we never find accepting 2 different days as the actual correct yom kippur. The turei e'ven gives an alternative explanation that the real reason he wasn't believed is because only 2 witnesses are believed, and levi was only one. The reason 2 witnesses are needed is bec. an eid echad is not belived in place of chazaka, certainly not in place of 'rov' which is even stronger. Since there is a 'rov' that ellul is not me'ubar, only 2 witnesses would be believed to say that it was me'ubar(the implication that had he heard "mekudash" he would have been listened to, would have only been a chumra). The approach of the Turei E'ven is difficult bec. even later on daf in the story with r' nachman it seems clear the "hahau gavra" was believed - which sounds like there was only one individual.
The sefas emes explains tosafos that it was not the local bavel beis din that had the power, but rather the beis din in yerushalaim instituted that any area that a shliach who heard mekudash cannot reach, for them yom kippur would be established assuming day 30 of ellul was rosh chodesh. The Ritva seems to have understood similar to the sefas emes's explanation of tosafos, that the original takana of the beis din hagadol is not too deviate from assuming the 30th of ellul was rosh chodesh, unless the shliach reporting heard from beis din mekudash. This is slightly meduyak in tosafos who asks the question from the perspective of levi, "how can levi allow them to eat on yom kippur" - implying that from the perspective of the people in bavel, it was assumed even in tosafos question that they were justified in not listening to levi.
9 comments:
see chazon ish (1st in Beitza) that says:
there are 2 ways the moshe got from hashem how to decide the months, by witnesses and acc to the calculations. in bavel they knew the cheshbon (later in the history - meaning during our gemara they already knew the cheshbon) and so they can make their own day, if however the shliach comes the must subgiate themselves to the b"d in israel.
could not find chazon ish in beitzah - where is it printed? what siman #?
O"C 130 :2,3
Rav Elyashiv Shlita points out that the Turei Even's explanation is not consistent with the Rambam's viewpoint where he states in Hilchos Kiddush Hachodesh (3:14) that one witness is believed even in relevance to a Biblical matter, providing that it is something that will eventually be made public.
the end of o"c moed has a few masechtas after that starts hilchos y"t, 1st peice there, probably that was where he sent you, just making sure.
thats correct page 450 - 451
thank you - i found it.
I think that the approach of the chazon ish is even a bigger chiddush than tosafos. Tosafos seems to understand that the right of the beis din in bavel to rely on their cheshbon is only 'b'dieved' - meaning that if they err it is binding. the chazon ish says that even lechatchila they have a right to rely on their cheshbon, unless they are corrected by someone who qualifies as a shliach (heard "mekudash"). Also, why would they keep 2 days misafek in the earlier generations and not made this cheshbon. Furthermore, rashi in the mishna 18a says that they assumed that rosh chodesh tishrei was on day 30 based on 'rov' - it should have been based on cheshbon. Did they not have the knowledge of cheshbon earlier!?
a related question: when the gemora says that there was a concern for the vegetables and therefore they didnt want shabbos and yom tov one after the other, what happened to the two days misafek that they were keeping anyways?
avi,
the chazon ish says that earlier they didnt know the chesbon which is open in gemara beitza "...now that we knnmow how to determine the months..."
2. re avrumis q, were talking where the messengers or torches arrived, no?
yossie s
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