The gemara concludes that if it is "precious" or new (rashi), then a person can hear 2 sounds. It is not clear from the gemara if we are saying that you can hear one of the two sounds, or you can actually hear both sounds. Rashi 34b implies that you can actually hear both. The gemara speaks about hearing the 9 sounds of the shofar from 9 different people and rashi says that you would be yotzei since we hold that trei koli mishtamai. Rashi seems to understand that even though you needed to hear all the sounds, not just one of the 9, we still consider it possible since it is chaviv.
Also, the gemara must still make a distinction between one source and 2 sources to explain why zachor and shamor couldn't be heard even though they are presumably chaviv. Therefore, if one person would blow 2 shofars even though it is chaviv it would not be able to be heard - so we would say 'trei koli lo mishtamai' and it is as if he heard neither one. But, rashi 27a indicates that if 2 people could read together word for word, it would be considered one 'voice', not 2 voices. Similarly if 2 tekios were blown by one person at the same time, it would seem that would be one 'kol' and you can be yotzei a tekiah.
Also, the gemara must still make a distinction between one source and 2 sources to explain why zachor and shamor couldn't be heard even though they are presumably chaviv. Therefore, if one person would blow 2 shofars even though it is chaviv it would not be able to be heard - so we would say 'trei koli lo mishtamai' and it is as if he heard neither one. But, rashi 27a indicates that if 2 people could read together word for word, it would be considered one 'voice', not 2 voices. Similarly if 2 tekios were blown by one person at the same time, it would seem that would be one 'kol' and you can be yotzei a tekiah.
8 comments:
what is the source of rashi that you can hear both? perhaps im just thinking, the turei evens q, as he asks: what is the q from zachor v'shamor, maybe both you cannot hear but one you can?? see there, but acc to rashi its good, beacuse here too we r saying u can hear both,
what do you think?
i think you are right the the pashtus of the gemara from the question of zachor vshamor sounds like it assumes you can hear all or nothing, otherwiser there is no question as the turei even points out (to say that there is a mitzvah to hear the chatzotzros, like the turei even says, is a tremendous chiddush and does not seem to fit so well with the answer of "lekach ma'arich bshofar"). shkoyach.
i happen to like the turei even pshat, i think he means that the mitzva to hear the chatozrot is not on the person (gavra) but it is a din on the chazozrot that they should be heard! for he himslef agrees that it is a lesser obligation (similar to the achronim of how the ate less then a shiur of lechem hapanim, and the ztnoim...)
o/k i just saw our argument is in rav eyashiv, you r the ritva...
Reb Avi,
You got my email regarding the links?
On todays daf Rashi in divrei hamaschil im says that if you heard the kol shofar without the echo you are yotzei but if you hear them both you are not yotze. so you see from rashi that if you have two sounds one kosher and one pasul you don't say trei koli mistamai. which is an important point when being megader trie koli.
even though the shofar is chaviv so trei koli is heard, we consider the shofar and echo to be from one person, so that even chaviv doesn't help. this was the point that compelled the gemara to be mechadesh the distinction between one and 2 sources of the sound.
q and answer found in rashash.
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