1. Making tzuros - The gemara includes in this the issur to replicate the shamashim in mikdash, tzuras adam (R' chananel- since G-d appears to nevi'im as a person), tzuras daled panim, tzuras madur haelyon and tachton. There is an issur even to tell a goy to make it bec. of amirah l'nachri unless it is for a mitzvah (tosafos) [which seems to be like the ba'al haitur mentioned in the Rama o.c. 266 that shevus is mutar for mitzvah need, but the ritvah implies that kiddush hachodesh mitzvah might be different, and rashash says the issur shabbos may be more chamur]. This issur applies even if it is only 2d (see comment for proof from tosafos).
2. Chashad - Acc. to both rashi and tosafos it means that people will be choshed you of worshiping these things. The issur applies to all mador hatachton (as seen from r' gamliel), and partzuf adam (as seen from andarta) and acc. to tosafos even to a darkon (snake) since it is often a form made for avodah zarah [even though the darkon is mutar to make]. Although the gemara says the issur is only if it 3D(bolet), tosafos holds that objects that are seen as 2D, are assur even to make 2D. It is not so clear what is the geder of leaving these things around bec. of an issur chashad. Rashi by the ring indicates it is only an issur to wear but not to leave in your house [acc. to this why should the tzuros of r' gamliel be assur (if not for the 3 answers at the end of the sugya) - perhaps public a display in a private home is the only time it is assur [like r' gamliel who used it to show the eidim] but if it is not displayed [like the ring sitting at home] or it is displayed in a public area [like andarta], it is mutar]. but tosafos (end of d.h. sha'ani - see tos. harosh) seems to hold that it is only mutar by things that will not be around for a long time.
13 comments:
first, when i say 3d i mean bolet rather than shakuah.
It is clear from tosafos that it is assur to make even things which are 2d. Tosafos says the gemara originally understands that the issur chashad is that people will suspect that you made them (not that you worship them). Therefore, the gemara asks on r' gamliel that there should be chashada. then the gemara answers that only by 3d there is chashada, and this distinction only makes sense if the chashada is that you worship it. Based on this r' gamliel was mutar since it was only 2d. Later the gemara asks that since that by an individual there is chashad even by 2d (if it appears as 2d in the sky) so r' gamliel is still difficult.
according to tosafos the gemara understood that chashad is that you made it, and would apply equally to 3d and 2d. when the gemara answers that there is a difference between 3d and 2d, the gemara understands that the chashad can no longer be that you made it, bec. if the chashad is that you made it, even 2d should be assur. clearly, the issur of making is even by 2d.
There seems to be a big machlokes betwen Rav Elyashiv and Rav Ovadia Yossef regarding dolls. Rav Elyashiv is machmir and says that it's better to deface it somewhat. Rav Ovadia Yossef says it's muttar since they are mistreated and not handled with respect and everyone knows that it won't be used for avoda zora.
just one more point.
even though the issur of making this forms applies not only to things that are bolet but even to things that are shokeiya, 2 dimensional pictures may even be less than that and not be assur at all. the models of r' gamliel were not bolet, but they were perhaps 3d and that is why they would be assur if not for one of the 3 answers offered by the gemara.
reb avu,
your 2d discussion is open in tosfos yuma 54!
I assume you are not talking to me since Tosfos doesn't talk about dolls
no its addressed to Reb Avi, sorry for the spelling.
the sevara of Rav Yosef i think is sourced in rishonim brought in tur maybe, im a little confused about all the opinions, but bottom line, is anyone makpid to rip the eyes out of our dolls????
thank you r' yossi. i did not look back at that long tosafos, but i do recall the discussion about keruvim in machzorim.
regarding ripping out eyes in dolls, its easier to give barbie a "nose-job".
if you are interested - i wrote something on this a few years back. i did not get a chance to go over it and update it (i can't put a link in a comment so you will have to copy and paste into your browser).
http://www.freewebs.com/avilebo/tzuros.pdf
Reb avi - would you like me to teach you how tp put a link in the comments? It's simple if you want
Reb Yossi, I dont know if anyone's makpid (besides my sons) but ive heard stories of Chafetz Chaim and Steipler that they were makpid on this
A nice article on the issue (Hebrew pdf) can be found here
from Rabbi Avi Lebovitz, Kollel Palo Alto.
if you can send me an email to describe how to do that, i would appreciate it.
i just want to correct something that i said earlier. i tried to be medayek from tosafos that the issur of making tzuros applies even if it is not bolet. however, from the ring case, this is clearly not true bec. by the ring it is mutar to stamp with if the tzurah will be shokeyah.
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