1. The gemara 14a says that 15 of shevat is the date (acc. to b.h.) bec. most of the rainy season has passed. This seems to indicate that Tu'bshvat is a R.H. in and of itself, not connected to Tishrei. However, Tosafos (14a b'echad) says that really everything is based on Tishrei. Any chanata prior to Tu'bshvat means that the fruit grew on pre-Tishrei rain, but any chanata after Tu'bshvat means that it grew on post Tishrei rain. R' Benzaquen raised a question that the gemara seems to imply that it should be based on pre-shevat rain and post-shevat rain, rather than pre-Tishrei and post-Tishrei. I think that the assumption is that a fruit grows on a full years worth of rain. Therefore, since shevat (1st-B.S, 15th-B.H) is when most of the rainy season passed, any chanata after that time is assumed to have grown on more that 50% of post Tishrei rain and less than 50% of pre-Tishrei rain. But if the chanata is before shevat, then we assume the fruit grew on less than 50% of post-tishrei rain and more than 50% of pre-tishrei rain. Based on this explanation, I don't really understand the opinion of R' Nechemia 15b who says that if there is only one crop per year (all fruit ripen at the same time), it is all based on the picking whether it is picked pre-shevat or post-shevat. Regarding chanata, it makes sense that blossoming before or after shevat indicates whether it grew on pre-tishrei or post-tishrei rain, but what does the picking have to do with Tishrei. It must be that R' Nechemia is assuming Tu'bshvat is a R.H. in and of itself not dependent on the Tishrei.
2. According to both Rabba and R' Hamnuna 15a we go by esrog after chanata, but from 6th to 7th year, Rabba says that it is exempt from ma'aser bec. "yad hakol memashmishim..". Tosafos claims that acc. to R' Gamliel in the mishnah that you go after chanata for shivi'is and lekita from ma'aser, it is very clear why in 6th to 7th you are exempt from both shevi'is (chanata) and ma'aser - bec. regarding hilchos ma'aser you go after the picking which establishes it to be a shemitah fruit and exempt (based on this the steipler explains why we need a special pasuk for shemitah to be patur from ma'aser and we can't just use the hefker pasuk - bec. in this case, the fruits do not have the status of hefker since they are 6th year in regard to shemitah, yet they are patur from ma'aser since they are picked in the 7th). Rashi seems to disagree bec. when he explains Avtulamos, he implies that going after picking for ma'aser is only in regard to chodosh and yoshon, and ma'ser sheini vs. ma'ser ani, but not in regard to establishing it as shemitah fruit to be exempt from ma'aser. Acc. to Rashi the opinion in the braisa of Avtulmos is a straightforward support to rabba and R' Hamnuna in that you follow chanata, just that rabba would add an additional sevarah "yad hakol..." to patur from ma'aser. However, acc. to Tosafos, the Braisa of Avtulmos actually contradicts both Rabba and R' Hamnuna bec. neither one of them determine the year of ma'aser based on the 7th year in which it was picked. It comes out that the braisa is a fundamentally different opinion than rabba and r' hamnuna.
excellent points. 1. this is a machlokes rishonim and see turei even really a machlokes in yerushalmi r' nechemia is shver any which way, however, really the picking is the maturity of the fruits which in a way is more similar to a 1/3 then chanata is... 2.again, rav elyashv says that rashi and tosfos really arguing how to pasken in yerushalmi
Regarding the sugya above and what we spoke about a few days ago, I wrote about the Chasam Sofer and other examples of how the laws of nature is dictated by the Torah here.
Did one of you mention another case like this a few weeks ago? thanks
4 comments:
1. The gemara 14a says that 15 of shevat is the date (acc. to b.h.) bec. most of the rainy season has passed. This seems to indicate that Tu'bshvat is a R.H. in and of itself, not connected to Tishrei. However, Tosafos (14a b'echad) says that really everything is based on Tishrei. Any chanata prior to Tu'bshvat means that the fruit grew on pre-Tishrei rain, but any chanata after Tu'bshvat means that it grew on post Tishrei rain. R' Benzaquen raised a question that the gemara seems to imply that it should be based on pre-shevat rain and post-shevat rain, rather than pre-Tishrei and post-Tishrei.
I think that the assumption is that a fruit grows on a full years worth of rain. Therefore, since shevat (1st-B.S, 15th-B.H) is when most of the rainy season passed, any chanata after that time is assumed to have grown on more that 50% of post Tishrei rain and less than 50% of pre-Tishrei rain. But if the chanata is before shevat, then we assume the fruit grew on less than 50% of post-tishrei rain and more than 50% of pre-tishrei rain.
Based on this explanation, I don't really understand the opinion of R' Nechemia 15b who says that if there is only one crop per year (all fruit ripen at the same time), it is all based on the picking whether it is picked pre-shevat or post-shevat. Regarding chanata, it makes sense that blossoming before or after shevat indicates whether it grew on pre-tishrei or post-tishrei rain, but what does the picking have to do with Tishrei. It must be that R' Nechemia is assuming Tu'bshvat is a R.H. in and of itself not dependent on the Tishrei.
2. According to both Rabba and R' Hamnuna 15a we go by esrog after chanata, but from 6th to 7th year, Rabba says that it is exempt from ma'aser bec. "yad hakol memashmishim..". Tosafos claims that acc. to R' Gamliel in the mishnah that you go after chanata for shivi'is and lekita from ma'aser, it is very clear why in 6th to 7th you are exempt from both shevi'is (chanata) and ma'aser - bec. regarding hilchos ma'aser you go after the picking which establishes it to be a shemitah fruit and exempt (based on this the steipler explains why we need a special pasuk for shemitah to be patur from ma'aser and we can't just use the hefker pasuk - bec. in this case, the fruits do not have the status of hefker since they are 6th year in regard to shemitah, yet they are patur from ma'aser since they are picked in the 7th).
Rashi seems to disagree bec. when he explains Avtulamos, he implies that going after picking for ma'aser is only in regard to chodosh and yoshon, and ma'ser sheini vs. ma'ser ani, but not in regard to establishing it as shemitah fruit to be exempt from ma'aser.
Acc. to Rashi the opinion in the braisa of Avtulmos is a straightforward support to rabba and R' Hamnuna in that you follow chanata, just that rabba would add an additional sevarah "yad hakol..." to patur from ma'aser. However, acc. to Tosafos, the Braisa of Avtulmos actually contradicts both Rabba and R' Hamnuna bec. neither one of them determine the year of ma'aser based on the 7th year in which it was picked. It comes out that the braisa is a fundamentally different opinion than rabba and r' hamnuna.
excellent points.
1. this is a machlokes rishonim and see turei even really a machlokes in yerushalmi
r' nechemia is shver any which way, however, really the picking is the maturity of the fruits which in a way is more similar to a 1/3 then chanata is...
2.again, rav elyashv says that rashi and tosfos really arguing how to pasken in yerushalmi
Regarding the sugya above and what we spoke about a few days ago, I wrote about the Chasam Sofer and other examples of how the laws of nature is dictated by the Torah here.
Did one of you mention another case like this a few weeks ago?
thanks
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